Goi's Fitness Forum

galapogos wrote:

KEVIN LIM wrote:

galapogos wrote:My guess is just a dowel or empty bar.

Example of a CF class conducting OHS skill transfer by CF Coaches

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/dave-re.html

1. Mechanics
2. Consistancy
3. Intensity

The OHS is actually one of the assessments in the FMS, except in the FMS it's done with feet shoulder width apart and pointing directly ahead, to exaggerate any compensations/imbalances you may have. It's much harder to do when in this stance.

thats because your bodies not meant to squat down with your toes pointing fwds

watch any group of kids playing, or oly lifters, the toes point out slightly

why anyone would want to assess someone for something their body is not meant to do is beyond me

have them do real functional movement

thats what they will do in life

jerry.mobbs wrote:

galapogos wrote:

KEVIN LIM wrote:

galapogos wrote:My guess is just a dowel or empty bar.

Example of a CF class conducting OHS skill transfer by CF Coaches

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/dave-re.html

1. Mechanics
2. Consistancy
3. Intensity

The OHS is actually one of the assessments in the FMS, except in the FMS it's done with feet shoulder width apart and pointing directly ahead, to exaggerate any compensations/imbalances you may have. It's much harder to do when in this stance.

thats because your bodies not meant to squat down with your toes pointing fwds

watch any group of kids playing, or oly lifters, the toes point out slightly

why anyone would want to assess someone for something their body is not meant to do is beyond me

have them do real functional movement

thats what they will do in life

You really need to check out FMS if you're going to criticize it, like you always urge us to check out CF before criticizing it too It may not be "beyond you" once you check it out.

Hint: An "exercise" done for a screen is not necessarily the same as an exercise done for conditioning.

wu link boh?

KEVIN LIM wrote:wu link boh?

http://www.functionalmovement.com

Most of the site is not free though. However there are some free articles there to get you started. There are also many members in this forum certified to perform the basic FMS that you can ask. Also google books has excerpts from Cook's "Athletic Body in Balance" book that you can check out as well. It has an earlier version of the FMS I believe.

galapogos wrote: Most of the site is not free though. However there are some free articles there to get you started. There are also many members in this forum certified to perform the basic FMS that you can ask. Also google books has excerpts from Cook's "Athletic Body in Balance" book that you can check out as well. It has an earlier version of the FMS I believe.

blasphemy.
thou shalt not worship false idols!

galapogos wrote:

KEVIN LIM wrote:wu link boh?

http://www.functionalmovement.com

Most of the site is not free though. However there are some free articles there to get you started. There are also many members in this forum certified to perform the basic FMS that you can ask. Also google books has excerpts from Cook's "Athletic Body in Balance" book that you can check out as well. It has an earlier version of the FMS I believe.

Quite similair to a cert I took 2 years back by ptonthenet.com called Resisted Movement Training (RMT), where you use protocols to check for imbalance in the client and then prescribe excercises to correct the imbalance. A good to have tool when you have a client who specificaly wants only to correct the body's imbalance.

galapogos wrote: You really need to check out FMS if you're going to criticize it, like you always urge us to check out CF before criticizing it too It may not be "beyond you" once you check it out.

Hint: An "exercise" done for a screen is not necessarily the same as an exercise done for conditioning.

Goi,

What are we going to do with you? This comment is really only worthy of Louis.

Deep down you -know- that I have already done this.......

Oddly enough, a lot of folks come to CF from a normal so-called 'functional training' background. A lot of them use screens such as Gray Cooks. Its actually a good one. A lot of the demo videos are on you tube or google video if anyone is interested.

They all move away from it, because they find that the issues the FMS was highlighting were also occuriung when they tried to do the movements required in Crossfit. Once they mastered the mechanics of the basic Crossfit movements they could pass the screen easily.

The screen can only really be administered one on one, which is rather time consuming. However; have 10 guys stand in a circle, coach them all in the mechanics, bring in the 'worst' offender to the middle, have everyone check their form (so they all get the cues) and fix it, repeat and rotate until they all get it. Its a lot more efficient and achieves the same result. The fact that they all pass the screen after learning the basic Crossfit moves bear this out and makes the FMS redundant. This is not my opinion, its what guys who used to use the FMS found after implementing CF.

Ya gotta love data ;-)

Email Matt Swift at CF Brisbane if you want a really indepth discussion.

C'mon chief, I know you can do better than this.....

Let me add to this by saying that some folks will really struggle with some of the basic CF moves. In the same way that they would struggle with some of the FMS tests.

These guys need some kind of specialist intervention. But you don't need to pay for an FMS to find that out. Just take em through the basic CF exercises to find out which ones they have a real problem with.

jerry.mobbs wrote:

galapogos wrote: You really need to check out FMS if you're going to criticize it, like you always urge us to check out CF before criticizing it too It may not be "beyond you" once you check it out.

Hint: An "exercise" done for a screen is not necessarily the same as an exercise done for conditioning.

Goi,

What are we going to do with you? This comment is really only worthy of Louis.

Deep down you -know- that I have already done this.......

Oddly enough, a lot of folks come to CF from a normal so-called 'functional training' background. A lot of them use screens such as Gray Cooks. Its actually a good one. A lot of the demo videos are on you tube or google video if anyone is interested.

They all move away from it, because they find that the issues the FMS was highlighting were also occuriung when they tried to do the movements required in Crossfit. Once they mastered the mechanics of the basic Crossfit movements they could pass the screen easily.

The screen can only really be administered one on one, which is rather time consuming. However; have 10 guys stand in a circle, coach them all in the mechanics, bring in the 'worst' offender to the middle, have everyone check their form (so they all get the cues) and fix it, repeat and rotate until they all get it. Its a lot more efficient and achieves the same result. The fact that they all pass the screen after learning the basic Crossfit moves bear this out and makes the FMS redundant. This is not my opinion, its what guys who used to use the FMS found after implementing CF.

Ya gotta love data ;-)

Email Matt Swift at CF Brisbane if you want a really indepth discussion.

C'mon chief, I know you can do better than this.....

No, I actually didn't know that you have already checked out FMS. How would I know? Did you go for the certification? Read the book? I don't look through your credit card bills so I wouldn't know. If you have checked it out already and still stand by your opinion, then great, more power to you. However, I think there's a reason why a sizable number of pro sports teams in the USA have been adopting the FMS with great results, as attested by the coaches who have adopted them. Let's wait a few more years and see if the "basic Crossfit moves" will replace them with better results.

Yes the FMS does require 1 on 1 attention. That doesn't make it bad, it just makes it harder to administer to a group. I'm not arguing this point.

btw, are you able to get 21 points on the FMS? And can you tell me what the basic Crossfit moves are, other than the OHS?

jerry.mobbs wrote:Let me add to this by saying that some folks will really struggle with some of the basic CF moves. In the same way that they would struggle with some of the FMS tests.

These guys need some kind of specialist intervention. But you don't need to pay for an FMS to find that out. Just take em through the basic CF exercises to find out which ones they have a real problem with.

Coming from a person who don't train/coach people for a living.
Good for you.

KEVIN LIM wrote:

galapogos wrote:

KEVIN LIM wrote:wu link boh?

http://www.functionalmovement.com

Most of the site is not free though. However there are some free articles there to get you started. There are also many members in this forum certified to perform the basic FMS that you can ask. Also google books has excerpts from Cook's "Athletic Body in Balance" book that you can check out as well. It has an earlier version of the FMS I believe.

Quite similair to a cert I took 2 years back by ptonthenet.com called Resisted Movement Training (RMT), where you use protocols to check for imbalance in the client and then prescribe excercises to correct the imbalance. A good to have tool when you have a client who specificaly wants only to correct the body's imbalance.

Well, correcting (or rather reducing I should say) the body's imbalance should be a priority before any training intervention. The FMS acts as a screen to catch those imbalances and compensations easily, since the exercises are specifically made to be hard to "cheat", hence anything you try to do to "pass" the test will be easily noticed. It's nothing special, and certainly doesn't deserve the Nobel prize, but it does cover all the bases(different planes, different movements, single/double legged, primitive patterns to more advanced ones, etc).

Weib wrote:

jerry.mobbs wrote:Let me add to this by saying that some folks will really struggle with some of the basic CF moves. In the same way that they would struggle with some of the FMS tests.

These guys need some kind of specialist intervention. But you don't need to pay for an FMS to find that out. Just take em through the basic CF exercises to find out which ones they have a real problem with.

Coming from a person who don't train/coach people for a living.
Good for you.

you have no idea what i have done with my life

no idea at all

galapogos wrote:[
No, I actually didn't know that you have already checked out FMS. How would I know? Did you go for the certification? Read the book? I don't look through your credit card bills so I wouldn't know. If you have checked it out already and still stand by your opinion, then great, more power to you. However, I think there's a reason why a sizable number of pro sports teams in the USA have been adopting the FMS with great results, as attested by the coaches who have adopted them. Let's wait a few more years and see if the "basic Crossfit moves" will replace them with better results.

Yes the FMS does require 1 on 1 attention. That doesn't make it bad, it just makes it harder to administer to a group. I'm not arguing this point.

btw, are you able to get 21 points on the FMS? And can you tell me what the basic Crossfit moves are, other than the OHS?

Well you should have figured that I've at least studied enough on a subject to spout forth an opinion on the internet by now mate ;-)

People go with what they know and learn.

The pro teams did not have such a well balanced tool as the FMS to independently check each athletes movement ability. Cook is clear on his FMS, there is a very high correlation between injury rate and poor performance on the FMS. I can see and understand why thats the case. No surprise there.

Guys I spoke to who used the FMS, got very good results. They also got the same results when going through the basic CF moves. So they stopped using it.

I doubt you will see CF in pro sports teams for a while, but who knows. Thats the future.

Lets stick with the facts in the present shall we....

galapogos wrote:

KEVIN LIM wrote:

galapogos wrote:

KEVIN LIM wrote:wu link boh?

http://www.functionalmovement.com

Most of the site is not free though. However there are some free articles there to get you started. There are also many members in this forum certified to perform the basic FMS that you can ask. Also google books has excerpts from Cook's "Athletic Body in Balance" book that you can check out as well. It has an earlier version of the FMS I believe.

Quite similair to a cert I took 2 years back by ptonthenet.com called Resisted Movement Training (RMT), where you use protocols to check for imbalance in the client and then prescribe excercises to correct the imbalance. A good to have tool when you have a client who specificaly wants only to correct the body's imbalance.

Well, correcting (or rather reducing I should say) the body's imbalance should be a priority before any training intervention. The FMS acts as a screen to catch those imbalances and compensations easily, since the exercises are specifically made to be hard to "cheat", hence anything you try to do to "pass" the test will be easily noticed. It's nothing special, and certainly doesn't deserve the Nobel prize, but it does cover all the bases(different planes, different movements, single/double legged, primitive patterns to more advanced ones, etc).

Just to add on to what Jerry said, alot of the imbalance and flexibilty issues can be identified when the client / athlete goes thru the 9 fundamental moves. Vice versa FMS, RMT.... etc is not the only tool that I can use to address these issues.

Fair enough. Like you said, there's a correlation between FMS performance and injury rates - that's in the present(and past). Maybe not as much correlation with performance, I remember hearing Cook say something about that but I can't remember the specifics. However, injury rates is just as important as performance, coming from a guy with a just about permanent injury.

If the people you spoke with got the same results with the basic CF moves as they did with FMS, why did they stop using the FMS? And which population did they administer the moves/screen to?

You haven't answered my question - what are the basic Crossfit moves other than the OHS? I'm genuinely interested to know.

Edit: Just googled the cf basic movements, and 1st glance - they're all bilateral, and sagittal plane movements.

KEVIN LIM wrote:

galapogos wrote:

KEVIN LIM wrote:

galapogos wrote:

KEVIN LIM wrote:wu link boh?

http://www.functionalmovement.com

Most of the site is not free though. However there are some free articles there to get you started. There are also many members in this forum certified to perform the basic FMS that you can ask. Also google books has excerpts from Cook's "Athletic Body in Balance" book that you can check out as well. It has an earlier version of the FMS I believe.

Quite similair to a cert I took 2 years back by ptonthenet.com called Resisted Movement Training (RMT), where you use protocols to check for imbalance in the client and then prescribe excercises to correct the imbalance. A good to have tool when you have a client who specificaly wants only to correct the body's imbalance.

Well, correcting (or rather reducing I should say) the body's imbalance should be a priority before any training intervention. The FMS acts as a screen to catch those imbalances and compensations easily, since the exercises are specifically made to be hard to "cheat", hence anything you try to do to "pass" the test will be easily noticed. It's nothing special, and certainly doesn't deserve the Nobel prize, but it does cover all the bases(different planes, different movements, single/double legged, primitive patterns to more advanced ones, etc).

Just to add on to what Jerry said, alot of the imbalance and flexibilty issues can be identified when the client / athlete goes thru the 9 fundamental moves. Vice versa FMS, RMT.... etc is not the only tool that I can use to address these issues.

Definitely! Nobody is suggesting that FMS is the end all, be all tool. It's just 1 tool in your tool box. The pro sports teams coaches don't only use the FMS either. They also do a range of other static and dynamic assessments. However the FMS is a great starting point since it's tried and tested. With some experience you'd be able to add on your own assessment tools that you may have more success with.

galapogos wrote:Fair enough. Like you said, there's a correlation between FMS performance and injury rates - that's in the present(and past). Maybe not as much correlation with performance, I remember hearing Cook say something about that but I can't remember the specifics. However, injury rates is just as important as performance, coming from a guy with a just about permanent injury.

I doubt the correlation between performance and the FMS will be so strong as top end guys will be gifted enough to work round the imbalance. But performance at a high level in a suboptimal way would lead to injury. Thats just a hypothesis.

galapogos wrote:If the people you spoke with got the same results with the basic CF moves as they did with FMS, why did they stop using the FMS? And which population did they administer the moves/screen to?

People who come to them for training. Ie a typical crossfitter who can range from young to old, big or small etc.

You get the same result with more people with less time. Hence the change in use. Why use something thats more cumbersome when you get the same result. Why crawl to the MRT station, when you can walk?

However, if your looking after 25 guys all paid $1m per year, then they will all want a little bit of personal attention. Especially in the NFL where the positions are all radically different. Can you imagine playing a game where you are never even expected to touch the freaking ball due to the position you play!

galapogos wrote:You haven't answered my question - what are the basic Crossfit moves other than the OHS? I'm genuinely interested to know.

Edit: Just googled the cf basic movements, and 1st glance - they're all bilateral, and sagittal plane movements.

The fundamental movements are

air squat-front sqaut-ohs
deadlift-sumo deadlift high pull- med ball clean
press- push press-push jerk

The basic movements are any movement required to complete a WOD so you need to add in
squat clean
split jerk
dips
l sit
pull ups
handstands
pistols
tgu
etc
etc
etc

The 9 fundamental movements will get you a long way, but you can't do all the WODS without learning the kip etc

jerry.mobbs wrote:

galapogos wrote:Fair enough. Like you said, there's a correlation between FMS performance and injury rates - that's in the present(and past). Maybe not as much correlation with performance, I remember hearing Cook say something about that but I can't remember the specifics. However, injury rates is just as important as performance, coming from a guy with a just about permanent injury.

I doubt the correlation between performance and the FMS will be so strong as top end guys will be gifted enough to work round the imbalance. But performance at a high level in a suboptimal way would lead to injury. Thats just a hypothesis.

Agreed.

jerry.mobbs wrote:

galapogos wrote:If the people you spoke with got the same results with the basic CF moves as they did with FMS, why did they stop using the FMS? And which population did they administer the moves/screen to?

People who come to them for training. Ie a typical crossfitter who can range from young to old, big or small etc.

You get the same result with more people with less time. Hence the change in use. Why use something thats more cumbersome when you get the same result. Why crawl to the MRT station, when you can walk?

However, if your looking after 25 guys all paid $1m per year, then they will all want a little bit of personal attention. Especially in the NFL where the positions are all radically different. Can you imagine playing a game where you are never even expected to touch the freaking ball due to the position you play!

Agreed again. However, you might be in hard contact with other types of balls! Or have your own sweaty balls in hard contact with...never mind...

jerry.mobbs wrote:

galapogos wrote:You haven't answered my question - what are the basic Crossfit moves other than the OHS? I'm genuinely interested to know.

Edit: Just googled the cf basic movements, and 1st glance - they're all bilateral, and sagittal plane movements.

The fundamental movements are

air squat-front sqaut-ohs
deadlift-sumo deadlift high pull- med ball clean
press- push press-push jerk

The basic movements are any movement required to complete a WOD so you need to add in
squat clean
split jerk
dips
l sit
pull ups
handstands
pistols
tgu
etc
etc
etc

The 9 fundamental movements will get you a long way, but you can't do all the WODS without learning the kip etc

That's a whole lot of movements. I was just talking about the basic ones that you mentioned. Anyway when I googled for the 9, a page from the CF boards highlighted those 9 that you mentioned, which are covered in the Level 1 certification. Interestingly enough, many CFers seem unaware that there were such 9 fundamental movements. Also interestingly enough the clean is taught rather than the snatch, and with a med-ball to boot.

galapogos wrote:
The 9 fundamental movements will get you a long way, but you can't do all the WODS without learning the kip etc
That's a whole lot of movements. I was just talking about the basic ones that you mentioned. Anyway when I googled for the 9, a page from the CF boards highlighted those 9 that you mentioned, which are covered in the Level 1 certification. Interestingly enough, many CFers seem unaware that there were such 9 fundamental movements. Also interestingly enough the clean is taught rather than the snatch, and with a med-ball to boot.

Yes, its not to clear.

But you'll pick up the movements anyway by trying the WODS

The med ball clean is used as it needs very little equipment. It also emphasizes some aspects of the clean/ triple extension much better than using a pvc pipe

Its easier to fix the 'arm curl' with a med ball than pvc as you just watch the line on the medball and see if it rotates round

I don't buy the argument that it's a question of equipment. You're gonna be progressing from a deadlift and a SDHP anyway, so you must already have access to a barbell and some plates before you get to the clean. Which aspects of the clean/triple extension does the med ball clean emphasize better? Conventionally if you have "arm curl" problems a power shrug/jump shrug/high pull would be progression before the full clean? I've never seen a person being taught to clean with a med ball. I'm having problems visualizing what it even looks like. Any videos of you getting Louis to do this while you were here last year?

galapogos wrote:I don't buy the argument that it's a question of equipment. You're gonna be progressing from a deadlift and a SDHP anyway, so you must already have access to a barbell and some plates before you get to the clean. Which aspects of the clean/triple extension does the med ball clean emphasize better? Conventionally if you have "arm curl" problems a power shrug/jump shrug/high pull would be progression before the full clean? I've never seen a person being taught to clean with a med ball. I'm having problems visualizing what it even looks like. Any videos of you getting Louis to do this while you were here last year?

the deadlift and sdhp are done with pvc

your going to do the movements anywhere from 30 to 60 times in 15 mins to get the mechanic down pat

try that with a barbell in 1 day for 9 movements!!

remember

its MECHANICS
then CONSISTENCY
then INTENSITY or load

the med ball is a proxy for an 'odd object', it changes the start and rack position from a barbell so you learn to adjust the set up depending on the load

not everything has a straight handle 8 inches of the ground

you could use a sandbag to teach the clean, or even a mortar tube

as to the med ball, its commonly availabe in large qty in most gyms

if you put the ball in front of the wall and clean it it will soon fix any issues where you fling the weight outwards

galapogos wrote:I. Any videos of you getting Louis to do this while you were here last year?

Sorry no med ball for Louis, just a pole from Kevin's Lap Dancing Club.

Actually, I wish I had bought a video as Louis dead-lift set up is a classic example of a real lack of mobility.

He butt winks on setting up on a barbell. You cant see it on the you tube vids, but up close its f-ugly

you must know that you're preaching to the choir.