Goi's Fitness Forum

IMHO Louis is not alone; many people have the very same problem that plagues gym goers, they let their egos get in the way (I'm guilty at times, too); CF is not the sole, nor first culprit. We see plenty of examples even in the globo-gyms, and many times reinforced by the very PTs who should aspire to do better.

And just to be clear, I'm not talking about strongmen, powerlifters or other competitive athletes, who, as with all sportsmen, live on the edge of the rules of their sport. Nor am I talking about when you are striving to hit PRs, perhaps the last or 2nd last working set where you are really pushing the last few reps.

Case in point the hill sprints last friday; I saw some really bad form. Guys, if you do this on a regular occurrence, you are going to incur seriously bad imbalances in your hips, knees and ankles.

So we should have days where we just do form work on Sundays... or included it as part of the day's plans...

Nobody was checking me out last Friday...

Canuck eh wrote:So we should have days where we just do form work on Sundays... or included it as part of the day's plans...

Nobody was checking me out last Friday...

We are supposed to check form before starting the workout...

I did check your form last friday, it's fine (until about 10m before the finish line, but I'll give you that!). It's the others with major foot placement/gait issues that I'm worried about.

Nobody seems to be interested in form check day

That's the problem with CF and 300. Granted, it enables everyone to get together and train. But the fact that goals have already been set and everyone has to meet them by hook or by crook doesn't sound good. Either because the goals are too much to handle or because of peer pressure not to become last, breakdown in form seems to be necessary which shouldn't be the case. Some want to lose fat. CF and 300 is a fine program to use if planned properly, but not if it's bodyweight-orientated.

During Red Dot, I knew I will surely be the last because I didn't train bodyweight exercises at all for the past year, and I had plenty of excess weight. A lousy combination that ensured I was killed outright, but I still did not compromise on form until I came to those exercises which I couldn't do at all, which is another matter. Imagine doing that for fat loss for 3 workouts a week. Who can stick to it? That's why I only using weights (kbs just happen to be something I know, it can be bb or db as well), because I can start with advantages (sufficient strength, trained in weights) that will ensure I can stick to it and succeed, not start with disadvantages (poor bodyweight to strength ratio, untrained in bodyweight exercises, excess weight) that ensure I will burn out, fail, and be prone to injuries.

It may be better to scale the workout according to fitness. The problem is for those with poor bodyweight to strength ratio, the numbers may be scaled down to such that it doesn't provide a workout at all. And yet again, the form for weights isn't that great either. Oooh boy.

It's fun to get together, that can't be denied. But if form is going to be a concern and talked about every now and then, instead of a form check day, how about two different workouts instead? One for regulars, one that is sufficiently challenging YET DOABLE in good form for the rest? Yeah it sounds like segregation, but otherwise there is no point talking about form anymore when the workout is such that not everyone can handle it, let alone in good form.

Would enforcing no-counts on bad reps help? or make things worse?

I understand and can commiserate with Jon. 300 as done in a gym with a plethora of equipment and viable alternative exercises, would be a very different creature indeed. However, we do have a rather limited set of options when doing it at TPY Stadium, hence the predominance of bodyweight type exercises, and whatever KB exercises we can manage.

The comment is still valid, and the solution has always been available: people have to speak up and ask for substitutes. We certainly do so for the ladies, and we've also done so for the guys (Jordan's press imbalance comes to mind!), to ensure that it tries to remain more met.cond than strength oriented, e.g. if you can't even do 10 dips with good form, it's no point trying to do 3 rounds of 10 ring dips for time, so we might sub pushups or bench dips instead.

Not sure if the no-count really helps, if people are already starting off with a movement beyond their base capacity.

Jonathan wrote:That's the problem with CF..............

I am speaking totally on behalf of CF. In CF, people are taught the mechanics of movements first and when they show consistency in good form and consistency in training only will we ratchet up the intensity. Thus we have intro classes to teach people the fundamental movements of CF, only upon passing an evaluation will they be allowed to join the WOD classes. Moreover its good form (half fuck or cheap reps don't count as reps at all) that will get you moving faster, no?
Shooter A : Fired 5 rounds at a target board in 3 secs and none landed.
Shooter B : Fired 5 rounds at the target board in 5 sec and landed 4.
Though shooter B is slightly slower than shooter A, he landed more rounds only because he made the effort to pause and take aim.
If one can't even control his / her own body weight, issit wise to even get him / her to control an external weight? ie to say he / she has not learn even to produce force or torque from core to extremity (a simple air squat), will he / she be able to transfer that force or torque to an external object (a thruster) ? ie to say try doing a thruster with heels off the ground. The momentum created from the hips extension has no means of efficient transfer to the BB.

xarope wrote: The comment is still valid, and the solution has always been available: people have to speak up and ask for substitutes. We certainly do so for the ladies..

to be honest....
I always feel so when I can't do the real thing (and you guys have to crack ur head do think of subs)... and discouraged at times.
sometimes, easier said than done, cannot means cannot (at that point of time).
it's not that i dun wanna do the movement... it's just that i really can't do it.
but that does not mean i have stopped trying. i will work as hard as i could especially for handling those bw movements.
all it takes is... time (just how long or short).

Sorry, I know it's not easy...

yah dun always force me to use heavy kbs next time i use 16kg can already

Twxian wrote:yah dun always force me to use heavy kbs next time i use 16kg can already

There's a difference between "can't" and "don't like"... and I think you fall into the latter category

Always remember the three intuitive training guidelines:
-Technique at least 8/10
-Discomfort at most 3/10
-Effort: what you vary.

And remember the rule about increasing sophistication: only if technique stays consistently at least 8/10.

You health is more important.

Steph_Parker wrote: I always feel so when I can't do the real thing (and you guys have to crack ur head do think of subs)... and discouraged at times.
sometimes, easier said than done, cannot means cannot (at that point of time).
it's not that i dun wanna do the movement... it's just that i really can't do it.

Just n idea, is it better to design the workout using a LOWER sophistication level and increase it for the more experienced people rather than the other way round?

Eg, instead of putting in say a power clean which a lot of people can't do properly, design the workout around the deadlift.

hermanchauw wrote:

Steph_Parker wrote: I always feel so when I can't do the real thing (and you guys have to crack ur head do think of subs)... and discouraged at times.
sometimes, easier said than done, cannot means cannot (at that point of time).
it's not that i dun wanna do the movement... it's just that i really can't do it.

Just n idea, is it better to design the workout using a LOWER sophistication level and increase it for the more experienced people rather than the other way round?

Eg, instead of putting in say a power clean which a lot of people can't do properly, design the workout around the deadlift.

what if i can only clean my backside how?

I like scaling down rather than scaling up. It gives the trainee something to work towards.

But I agree with the technique portion. Once technique decreases too much due to fatigue, it's time to take a short break, regather, then continue.

As for discomfort though, I'm not too sure about that. While technique can easily be seen by other people, discomfort can only be felt by the trainee him/herself, and most beginners can't differentiate between the "good" discomfort and the "bad" discomfort.

Lets just stop doing everything lah. Everybody train their own style.
WE can just come together for long jogs lah next time.

No need to bring kbs and anything. MAybe bring skipping rope can already.

And therein lies the rub, some of us are fine with doing the workouts, others cannot perform the movements, so must perform substitutes, or not do it at all.

But really, is this a problem? It's not like you guys pay to do 300, and thus are highly unsatisfied that you didn't get your money's worth; you come for the camaraderie and fun (albeit painful at times). And more to the point, you come for the challenge, to do something different that you normally don't do during the weekdays. This exposes your strengths and your weaknesses, because you don't get to pick and choose.

If nothing else, this is invaluable.

xarope wrote:And therein lies the rub, some of us are fine with doing the workouts, others cannot perform the movements, so must perform substitutes, or not do it at all.

But really, is this a problem? It's not like you guys pay to do 300, and thus are highly unsatisfied that you didn't get your money's worth; you come for the camaraderie and fun (albeit painful at times). And more to the point, you come for the challenge, to do something different that you normally don't do during the weekdays. This exposes your strengths and your weaknesses, because you don't get to pick and choose.

If nothing else, this is invaluable.

This sentiment as shared by Phing is exactly how I feel.

No one said that we would be world class athletes by doing 300. Well, no one forced anybody to do 300. Nobody forces anybody to even bring equipment and stuffs.

We came together to train. Its not everyday that u see people who train strength, crossfit, bodybuilding style, powerlifting style, olympic lifting, heck.. any odd styles there is... come together to train. By training together, we give each other moral support, push each other to do things which we would not do on our own... WE share ideas, we share jokes, we share tears. We give each other advice, on training, stuffs that we know, etc. And, guess what... everything's free. Except for the entrance fees to E1, the bus fees, the cab fees, the petrol, the parking coupons, and the meals after the sessions.

COming together, any doubts we can ask one another. Just dont be too egoistic about it. Cannot do say cannot do lah, no one force u to do mah. And, I know for sure that we are looking out for each other's form as well. I for one would stop anyone from doing something dangerous or potentially injurious. Again, what are we looking for... to beat each other's time, or to beat your own previous efforts?

For me, everytime I get my ass down for training, I aim to make sure that I push myself. I am not looking forward to something which does not challenge me. I challenge myself. In doing all this, never in my mind have I tot that I would be the world's elite KB guy or anything like that. Thus, forgive me for not being too anal on KB form. As I try to constantly learn from others, I hope others will do the same too.

I guess i'm the one having bad form nagging at me all along during the hill sprints. I do wanna learn the correct way (duh), but if the bad form comes instinctively it kinda suck. Nowadays when i'm running on my own, i make it a point to run with as good form as possible, but of course, i don't know whether it's good unless there's someone looking...

...so form check day, i'm always in.

Let's not stop getting together for all the reasons everyone has mentioned.

The reflection and evaluation is good though as is the criticisims. We may need to rethink and retool some things so that we can have all the benefits while minimizing the risk of injuries.

And yes, it's a fun break from our usual training on our own.

why don't you all just come down for the movement prep classes at CFsg, do it once get it right or do it till you get it right.
So that leaves out the form issue and prevent the injuries.

I've learned that my form was not optimal albeit not horrible but could be better with little tweaks, so its always good to relearn and get coaching cues because you don't know what you don't know and what you know about correcting your form is limited to your ability spot faulty movement.

I've learned and now correcting and re-applying and it has benefited me, so moral of the story is that everyone needs a coach.

so who teaches the coach? or the coach's coach? >_>

Jordon wrote:so who teaches the coach? or the coach's coach? >_>

jack bauer

nobody is an expert at everything.
Everyone learns, share their knowledge and interest and help each other to improve in their understanding of what they're wish to know.

But kevin does a good job at cuing and correcting form with good coaching commands, he has an eye for details. I've learned alot from his style of coaching and teaching the movements.

Credit given when credit is due and i'll give him that - no bs or boot licking.

how come so fast no reply liao +1

Weib wrote:nobody is an expert at everything.
Everyone learns, share their knowledge and interest and help each other to improve in their understanding of what they're wish to know.

But kevin does a good job at cuing and correcting form with good coaching commands, he has an eye for details. I've learned alot from his style of coaching and teaching the movements.

Credit given when credit is due and i'll give him that - no bs or boot licking.

you can indeed learn much from the man himself.

kacie wrote:

Weib wrote:nobody is an expert at everything.
Everyone learns, share their knowledge and interest and help each other to improve in their understanding of what they're wish to know.

But kevin does a good job at cuing and correcting form with good coaching commands, he has an eye for details. I've learned alot from his style of coaching and teaching the movements.

Credit given when credit is due and i'll give him that - no bs or boot licking.

you can indeed learn much from the man himself.

hahaha thanks for the kind words kacie and louis, I am learning something new everyday. And I can definitely learn alot from Louis too. Just don't let me see you food measuring scale and smelly towel in my office again else I will set them on fire.

KEVIN LIM wrote: Just don't let me see you food measuring scale and smelly towel in my office again else I will set them on fire.

speaking of which, what is everyone doing, say around 9am tomorrow morning? I think Phing has already mentioned this...