15 march 2009

[Bryan]

i will do metcon ninja again on myself...prolly will b slower cos need to focus on the correct form..

thanks once again....as u guys can see i wanna improve on this sunday event partly due to the great guys who had motivated me....

[Steph_Parker]

another liar......

huai??

cause ur nowhere near skinny bui.
i am. that's my title, dun steal away!

[Bryan]

another liar......

huai??

cause ur nowhere near skinny bui.
i am. that's my title, dun steal away!

so sexy...i rikes

[Sufian]

when I start doing crossfit, I will play by crossfit's rules. Full lockout and all that. And, for everyone's notice, I have not started crossfit. What I have done is just met-con, using crossfit's ideas of WODs. Thus, don't need to include me in the "no full lock-out" or "hips never open" comments. It is not that I don't take critism well. But it is just that I have different goals from others. When I go for 300, I actually want the cardio and fat burning benefits. Not some timing challenge. Those who have actually trained with me (team 300 especially) know that I always challenge myself. No matter weights, cardio, or HITT. Thus, unless u do exactly what i do, then don't say that mine is easier to do.

I have already taken the first step, I want KEvin to teach me the proper kip. Will be practising kipping purely for 2 months.On my own, I have been practising the KB Overhead Swings, and I have always been doing my own running. From there on, I hope KEvin's plan works out, and then I can proceed with my plans to do crossfit. Oh ya, there is still the matter to learn the o lifts. Shit.

And, if anyone, I dont care who, thinks that "half reps" are easy or lazy, please try doing them. I may not be strong, I may not be able to explode with power, but I do know how to go slow in my reps. Heck, when I train, every rep is a slow rep. No matter if it is 15 reps, or 8 reps. (Cardio is a diff matter altogether) For me, if I don't feel it, I don't count it. That's how I train. At least for the past 16 weeks, in which I have gave my all in terms of effort, sweat and tears to try to hold on to some muscle while cutting. Glad that its all over. Now I can do what the rest of my friends here do. Don't worry Bryan, there is still time for us to do our TUT on our own. Haha


(Sorry for the rant... low cals and low carbs plus frequent cramps are making me moody.)

[Bryan]

ask u share my 1 jug of root beer u all dun wan...make me waste 1/4 jug

[Weib]

you buay gum 1/4 jug root beer, next time you cutting then you'll understand haha.

[Bryan]

you buay gum 1/4 jug root beer, next time you cutting then you'll understand haha.

i wun even cut in the first place....hahahaa.....cut for wad??? i nt into any competition, i got a kid, i m married....hahaa...and gals love guys wif nice tummy....

[keithzhoulw]

from a non-300ers yet of point . with comments come improvement...leaern from your mistake

[Steph_Parker]

from a non-300ers yet of point . with comments come improvement...leaern from your mistake

when will we be seeing you?

[nakorius]

from a non-300ers yet of point . with comments come improvement...leaern from your mistake

when will we be seeing you?

chiu should have never said anything... now Steph arrow chiu...

[jerry.mobbs]

when I start doing crossfit, I will play by crossfit's rules. Full lockout and all that. And, for everyone's notice, I have not started crossfit. What I have done is just met-con, using crossfit's ideas of WODs. Thus, don't need to include me in the "no full lock-out" or "hips never open" comments. It is not that I don't take critism well. But it is just that I have different goals from others. When I go for 300, I actually want the cardio and fat burning benefits. Not some timing challenge. Those who have actually trained with me (team 300 especially) know that I always challenge myself. No matter weights, cardio, or HITT. Thus, unless u do exactly what i do, then don't say that mine is easier to do.

)

Sufian

Its its cardio and fat buring your after, then do the math.

Do 20 thrusters with 3/4 rom as you are doing, and time it.

Then rest and do 20 thrusters with full rom and time it.

Keep the weight for the thrusters the same.

Are the 3/4 rom thrusters 25% faster than the full rom one?

I really doubt it.

So do the full rom and you will put the max demand on your system and you will reap the maximum cardio and fat burning effects.

Full rom actually works in your favor for your stated objectives.

Try it and let us know how you get on.

Secondly, when you do try Cf as you say, your going to have to unlearn all the movement patterns you have learnt doing 3/4 rom reps. This will retard your progress.

There is no benefit to short changing your range of motion if you want to use those movement in the future and gain the max cardio and fat burning from it.

When I say 3/4 rom movements are easier, its not saying your a slacker. Do the math, the power required is less so it is actually easier as less effort is required.

Hope this helps explain it all.

[jerry.mobbs]

Sufian

Which one are you in the video?

You guys all look the same to me ;-)

[Twxian]

hes teh one posing at the end

[xarope]

When I say 3/4 rom movements are easier, its not saying your a slacker. Do the math, the power required is less so it is actually easier as less effort is required.

Jerry, be careful with your examples. This is only true if there's no gravity.

take 100kg and do a 3xfull ROM squat. Say 12 seconds?

Now take 100kg and hold in what you call a half squat position, for the same 12 seconds. By your example, there is no power required, since there is no distance moved. By my calculation, you'll be sweating bullets and cramping up; remember our friend gravity, is actively forcing the weight down, the effort expended to keep the weight at that level is significant to the amount of weight of object+whatever calculation required for the significant portion of body mass * 9.8m/s.

Obviously, because of the human physiology, holding that weight at 1/4 squat, 3/4 squat... whatever... has different "effort" (for want of a better word) bearings, because of mechanical and skeletal advantage. It's not a linear progression of effort/work/power/whatever nonsense you'd like to call it.

However I do agree on full functional ROM; not just for the sake of doing full ROM, but functionally e.g. if you can't ATG without dropping from 200kg squat to 100kg, then that in itself is meaningless, if your normal requirements don't require anywhere close to ATG.

[jerry.mobbs]

When I say 3/4 rom movements are easier, its not saying your a slacker. Do the math, the power required is less so it is actually easier as less effort is required.

Jerry, be careful with your examples. This is only true if there's no gravity.

take 100kg and do a 3xfull ROM squat. Say 12 seconds?

Now take 100kg and hold in what you call a half squat position, for the same 12 seconds. By your example, there is no power required, since there is no distance moved. By my calculation, you'll be sweating bullets and cramping up; remember our friend gravity, is actively forcing the weight down, the effort expended to keep the weight at that level is significant to the amount of weight of object+whatever calculation required for the significant portion of body mass * 9.8m/s.

Obviously, because of the human physiology, holding that weight at 1/4 squat, 3/4 squat... whatever... has different "effort" (for want of a better word) bearings, because of mechanical and skeletal advantage. It's not a linear progression of effort/work/power/whatever nonsense you'd like to call it.

However I do agree on full functional ROM; not just for the sake of doing full ROM, but functionally e.g. if you can't ATG without dropping from 200kg squat to 100kg, then that in itself is meaningless, if your normal requirements don't require anywhere close to ATG.

thats like comparing singaporean press freedom with usa press freedom!

but your comparing a static hold with a dynamic movement

of course the effort is different

last time i saw that video, no on was doing l sits for time.....

[galapogos]

Phing's simply saying that you cannot always just look at power, power, power. It's not always about power, and the "effort" required and the energy input is not always proportional to the power output. Moving the same weight, the same distance in the same amount of time will consume more energy for one person than it does another. Moving the same weight, less distance in the same amount of time may take the same person more energy than moving it for a longer distance. Remember in partial ROM you will not be able to take advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle that's so important in ATG squats. That's why paused squats are so much harder than regular ATG squats.

[Canuck eh]

Since somewhere in this thread there's discussion of pull-ups...

http://byerscrossfit.blogspot.com/2009/ ... ll-up.html

[jerry.mobbs]

Phing's simply saying that you cannot always just look at power, power, power. It's not always about power, and the "effort" required and the energy input is not always proportional to the power output. Moving the same weight, the same distance in the same amount of time will consume more energy for one person than it does another. Moving the same weight, less distance in the same amount of time may take the same person more energy than moving it for a longer distance. Remember in partial ROM you will not be able to take advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle that's so important in ATG squats. That's why paused squats are so much harder than regular ATG squats.

No

We are comparing one person 3/4 rom thrusters with the SAME PERSON full rom thruster with the same weight

The equation are valid

Sufian wants fat burning and cardio effects, so you should aim to max out the power.

You do this with full range of motion

He's not doing paused squats or any such nonsense

[vicvic]

The Kip will improve your strict pull up but not the vice versa

This issue was brought up during the last certification and guess the only quantifiable way to approach this will be to get someone not exposed to kipping then test his max strict pull up and then get him to kip for the 3 months then do a strict pull up test again to compare results. I know it worked on me.

Second, the entire point of pull-ups is to build strength. While the kipping pull-up does improve strength to a degree, it is certainly not as valuable to strength gains as working dead hang pull-ups. It is entirely possible that a well coordinated trainee can achieve five or even ten consecutive kipping pull-ups and still not be able to perform a single dead hang. In that instance, the thing you’ve most improved is transferring the momentum from the swing into the movement. You certainly have not become as strong as you would be, had you worked to achieve even half number of dead hang pull-ups.

shall we have another subject to train on dead hang pull-ups and compare the results? i won't mind trying out but i have no idea how to train for such a scheme (unless it's just GTG)

[vicvic]

hm wait i think i'm comparing apples and oranges. my bad

[galapogos]

Phing's simply saying that you cannot always just look at power, power, power. It's not always about power, and the "effort" required and the energy input is not always proportional to the power output. Moving the same weight, the same distance in the same amount of time will consume more energy for one person than it does another. Moving the same weight, less distance in the same amount of time may take the same person more energy than moving it for a longer distance. Remember in partial ROM you will not be able to take advantage of the stretch-shortening cycle that's so important in ATG squats. That's why paused squats are so much harder than regular ATG squats.

No

We are comparing one person 3/4 rom thrusters with the SAME PERSON full rom thruster with the same weight

The equation are valid

Sufian wants fat burning and cardio effects, so you should aim to max out the power.

You do this with full range of motion

He's not doing paused squats or any such nonsense

Like I said - stretch shortening cycle. It's easier to bounce up from a full ATG squat than it is to decelerate the eccentric then accelerate the concentric of a 3/4 squat.

Sufian can do whatever he likes. Incidentally he has the data to prove his point - just look at his state of conditioning and his physique. Certainly better than you or me, or in fact I dare say everyone in this forum. You're conveniently ignoring this point. Could he perhaps do better if he does it with full ROM to max out the power? Perhaps, but there's no data to suggest this, so it would be just your opinion.

And paused squats isn't "nonsense" just because it isn't in the list of CF exercises. It's a tremendously helpful tool to get out of the hole, just like isometrics are helpful tools to get past a particular sticking point in a lift.

Like Phing, I'm not opposed to full ROM in these metcon workouts. In fact I try to do them as best I can. I am however opposed to the notion that it's always about power and nothing else, and the notion that everything else that isn't in CF is "nonsense".

[jerry.mobbs]

Your right, its not about power

His objective is fat loss and cardio

Shortening the ROM will reduce the power output and negate the fat burning and cardio effects Sufian is looking for.

The reason I say paused squats are nonsense is because your not doing them in this video.......

Next time your in the gym, grab a dumbell and do 20 swings to head height, time it.

Then do 20 swings overhead and time it.

Use the same weight.

Calculate the power output of both exercises.

Which one do you think will have the best cardio and fatburning effect???????

[Sufian]

Sorry for the trouble I caused with my comment. It was done in a moment of stupidity.

BTW, I have no doubt that crossfit has helped me. I especially like overhead swings for the cardio effect. Everytime I do my Low intensity steady state cardio (40 to 45mins of BORING BORING staircase climb, power walk, stationary cycling), I will include 20 OHS with my KBs every 4mins.. Nothing beats that feeling of a rush that overhead swings bring.

[galapogos]

His objective is fat loss and cardio

And he has done it, far better than any of us using a non-CF method. End of story.

[jerry.mobbs]

Sorry for the trouble I caused with my comment. It was done in a moment of stupidity.

BTW, I have no doubt that crossfit has helped me. I especially like overhead swings for the cardio effect. Everytime I do my Low intensity steady state cardio (40 to 45mins of BORING BORING staircase climb, power walk, stationary cycling), I will include 20 OHS with my KBs every 4mins.. Nothing beats that feeling of a rush that overhead swings bring.

What trouble ;-)

Just another healthy debate on Goi's forum.

Hopefully it spurs someone to go and do the Kettlebell swing test and they can work out their results themselves and see the impact both on the numbers and 'suck factor'.

I'll delete the guy in blue doing bicep poses from the form slides next time though!

[jerry.mobbs]

His objective is fat loss and cardio

And he has done it, far better than any of us using a non-CF method. End of story.

You've missed the point totally

Comparing him to us is plain silly.

We need to compare him to him.

If fat loss is your goal and you get one set of results doing half assed 3/4 rom movements. How much better results would he get if he did full range movements?

If you believe the higher power output will lead to more fat loss, then he should get better results doing the full rom.

If you don't believe that ceteris paribus, higher power output will have a better fat loss result, then thats another discussion......

[Weib]

what do a fat man who does only CF know about bodybuilding?

[galapogos]

You know what, if Sufian has given up defending himself and his methods, then I'm calling it quits too. The fact is that he has gotten the results he has w/o injury with his own methods, not with CF's methods, and these results are great by any standards. I may think whatever, but I'm not going to sit by the side and dismiss what he has done, what he has achieved and say "oh he's doing it wrong, he would be so much better if he did this instead".

[xarope]

To be perfectly fair, I like it when Jerry makes comments, as I surely have learnt from his comments too. The OH KB swing does hit my traps like no other exercise (not sure that's it's prime purpose, but what the hey, especially since I do no direct trap work anymore). There's always room for healthy debate, and though Jerry may seem to err on the side of CF, he's seen it working for him and wants to spread the joy. I think we all agree that compared to 99% of the junk cardio we see in the gym, we'd be far better off if those people were doing CF'ish type workouts.

After all, 300 is a crossfit'ish type workout, whether adapted from OPT, Gymjones, or just our own formulation. As a commercial success, Crossfit gives an easily understandable term (more so than Gymjones, except for the hard core), just like in the old days we talked about xeroxing a copy, or liquid paper'ing (did I just make up an English word?) a mistake. A mishmash of IWT, endurance, power, and all that other marketing stuff (TM).

[jerry.mobbs]

You know what, if Sufian has given up defending himself and his methods, then I'm calling it quits too. The fact is that he has gotten the results he has w/o injury with his own methods, not with CF's methods,

What does this have to do with CF?

It basic math and the impact of increased power output on fat loss. Two relatively simple concepts that anyone with a basic education should be able to discuss.

and these results are great by any standards.

Could not agree more. He's a fit looking bugger!

I may think whatever, but I'm not going to sit by the side and dismiss what he has done, what he has achieved and say "oh he's doing it wrong, he would be so much better if he did this instead".

I'm not dismissing what he's done at all, nor suggesting he's doing it wrong.

I'm suggesting a way it could be done better if you believe that higher power output means more cardio effect and fat loss.

If you think that last statement is not true, then you had all better stop 300 and start walking at 4km per hour on the treadmill for 60 mins 3 times a week........