Crossfit's Fight Gone Bad

[Sufian]

Fight Gone Bad

In this workout you move from each of five stations after a minute. This is a five-minute round from which a one-minute break is allowed before repeating. We've used this in 3 and 5 round versions. The stations are:

Wall-ball: 20 pound ball, 10 ft target. (Reps)
Sumo deadlift high-pull: 75 pounds (Reps)
Box Jump: 20" box (Reps)
Push-press: 75 pounds (Reps)
Row: calories (Calories)
The clock does not reset or stop between exercises. On call of "rotate," the athlete/s must move to next station immediately for good score. One point is given for each rep, except on the rower where each calorie is one point.

(taken from Crossfit FAQ)

How about doing this together?
Jerry said that we can sub the wall-ball with 20lb/hand thrusters.

I am trying this out today, for cardio purposes. Quite sick of cycling and running.

Whats your opinion on this suggestion?

[galapogos]

You'll also need a few rowers, which can be sub with BB sumo high pulls, in which case you'll also need a few BBs.

Either way, you'll need to go to a gym.

[jerry.mobbs]

your already doing high pulls

Better sub would be dumbell cleans using same db you use for thrusters ( as wall ball sub)

[galapogos]

Well we're still talking dumbbells/barbells, so a gym is still needed, unless Sufian you have a hidden stash of free weights your wife doesn't know about?

[jerry.mobbs]

you could scale fgb with 1 20lb dumbell and a park bench

no need for a gym at all

the magic is in the movement

large loads, moved long distances and quickly

the beauty of cf

[xarope]

We were toying with doing this or the gymjones 300, I think we ended up doing 300 for one reason or other (probably due to insufficient rowers). Either way, both workouts (300 and FGB) will need some gym equipment, otherwise we end up substituting way too much and it becomes a totally different workout.

[galapogos]

We were toying with doing this or the gymjones 300, I think we ended up doing 300 for one reason or other (probably due to insufficient rowers). Either way, both workouts (300 and FGB) will need some gym equipment, otherwise we end up substituting way too much and it becomes a totally different workout.

Exactly my point. Any workout can be scaled and substituted ad infinitum, this is not a "beauty" of just cf. Westside can be done the same way, as can GVT, EDT, Bill Starr 5x5, Starting Strength, etc. However, a scaled/subtituted workout would no longer be the original workout and would no longer present the body with the same movements nor yield the same adaptations as the original. It may be similar enough if you only subtitute 1-2 similar movements, but scale and subtitute enough times and soon your FGB would include bicep curls and tricep kickbacks

Bottom line, you still need a dumbbell, and hence you still need a gym, if you want to do anything that resembles FGB. Otherwise, CF garage gyms all over USA wouldn't need to exist, since you can just to everything at a park.

[jerry.mobbs]

We were toying with doing this or the gymjones 300, I think we ended up doing 300 for one reason or other (probably due to insufficient rowers). Either way, both workouts (300 and FGB) will need some gym equipment, otherwise we end up substituting way too much and it becomes a totally different workout.

the big difference between say fgb and 300 is that 300 has non functional movements in it (as per the CF definition)

300 uses floor wipers, which end up being very slow and do not qualify as moving a large load, long distances and quickly

we subbed hollow rocks

from an intensity = power point of view which is a core part of the crossfit prescription, then the hollow rock became a 'rest' period excepts for your abs and lower back

so if you take fgb as prescribed

Wall-ball: 20 pound ball, 10 ft target. (Reps)
Sumo deadlift high-pull: 75 pounds (Reps)
Box Jump: 20" box (Reps)
Push-press: 75 pounds (Reps)
Row: calories (Calories)

then thats a fair bit of equipment, but they all meet the 'large loads, moved long distances and quickly'

you can scale depending on your eqpt availability,just make sure you don't put turkish get ups in there as a sub for wall ball

once you decide on a scale, then record the number and then re do the same wod later and see if you have improved

if you only had a park bench and a 20lb dumbell you could do

Wall-ball: 20 pound ball, 10 ft target. (Reps) = thruster with 1 20lb dumbell
Sumo deadlift high-pull: 75 pounds (Reps) = SDHP with 20lb dumbell
Box Jump: 20" box (Reps) = park bench
Push-press: 75 pounds (Reps) = push press 20ld dumbell, alternate arms every 5 reps
Row: calories (Calories) = american swing with 20lb dumbell

note how all these subs still keep the objective of large loads, moved long distances and quickly

crossfit is designed to elicit the same response with the minimum of equipment, it just needs sensible substitution

hope this helps

[jerry.mobbs]

We were toying with doing this or the gymjones 300, I think we ended up doing 300 for one reason or other (probably due to insufficient rowers). Either way, both workouts (300 and FGB) will need some gym equipment, otherwise we end up substituting way too much and it becomes a totally different workout.

Exactly my point. Any workout can be scaled and substituted ad infinitum, this is not a "beauty" of just cf. Westside can be done the same way, as can GVT, EDT, Bill Starr 5x5, Starting Strength, etc. However, a scaled/subtituted workout would no longer be the original workout and would no longer present the body with the same movements nor yield the same adaptations as the original. It may be similar enough if you only subtitute 1-2 similar movements, but scale and subtitute enough times and soon your FGB would include bicep curls and tricep kickbacks

Bottom line, you still need a dumbbell, and hence you still need a gym, if you want to do anything that resembles FGB. Otherwise, CF garage gyms all over USA wouldn't need to exist, since you can just to everything at a park.

not really

any scaling has to meet the criteria of 'large loads, moved long distances and quickly'

if you want to use bicep curls feel free, but they would be an assistance exercise and not a core part of a crossfit workout

most people do not understand or follow the large loads+ long distances+quickly principle when scaling

[galapogos]

That's the underlying principle for CF, but not specific to FGB, which was my point. FGB and Helen and Grace and Fran all satisfy this principle, but they are different workouts. You could conceivably sub movements until Helen becomes Fran, in which case the adaptations would be different, because doing Fran for 6 months doesn't give you as good a Helen time as doing Helen for 6 months I'm pretty sure.

So if you only had a 20lb dumbbell and a park bench, you could sub FGB exercises and still satisfy the CF principle, but it just won't be FGB anymore. It would be a completely new WOD. Heck, we can name it "Sufian". But saying "hey let's do FGB this weekend" and then realizing we don't have barbells, rowers, a platform to jump on and a med ball to throw around, and then saying "hey what the heck let's sub ALL the movements and still call it FGB" sounds kind of wrong to me.

And the bottom line still remains - that's the reason why CF gyms all over USA are, well, gyms, and not parks.

[jerry.mobbs]

but the trippy thing is that doing Helen and fran and fgb will improve your fran time better than just doing fran for 6 months

Doing exactly the same wod is only important if you want to compare across groups, but to compare your own groups times over time

[Sufian]

Haiya... I was thinking of doing this in a gym. Like all of us together doing this.

Lets say 6 people do this. A, B, C, D, E ,F

1st min. A starts the FGB.
2nd min B starts the FGB.
and so on...

Thus, we would actually only need one complete set for 6 participants.

[galapogos]

Which gym were you thinking of that would allow this madness?

We don't need to pipeline it like you've mentioned. If we have 6 people, each person can just start with 1 station, so 1st person starts with A, 2nd with B, etc. That way we all start and finish at the same time.

[xarope]

but the trippy thing is that doing Helen and fran and fgb will improve your fran time better than just doing fran for 6 months

Doing exactly the same wod is only important if you want to compare across groups, but to compare your own groups times over time

interestingly, I don't do fran, helen etc, yet my times in 300 (whichever form) are usually better than anybody else's so far (including Jerry's). So obviously without doing CF I can still perform far better in CF than others who do CF...

partly in jest here, but my point is, CF is a particular paradigm/model for workout that has been around far longer than "CF" TM/C/whatever, and I dislike people saying that just because you mix some appropriate strength movements and doing them in "cardio" mode type workouts, means you are doing "CF" workouts...

CF has been packaged, marketed as such and is still an evolving business model (witness the large number of certifications now as example), I'm sure in years to come it will continue to evolve; I would not be surprised to see in future a CF-Strength for people more biased towards strength, CF-Running for those biased towards running, etc.

But for those of us who still roll our own workouts and borrow/steal from other disciplines, I would say that if we intend to do the workouts as a benchmark for our progress, it would behoove us to do the workouts either as close to described as possible (e.g. 300 or FGB), or else might as well roll our own.

[Sufian]

I just did it in hometeam gym. They allowed me to do this.

But too many people asking me if I am from dragon boat.

[jerry.mobbs]

partly in jest here, but my point is, CF is a particular paradigm/model for workout that has been around far longer than "CF" TM/C/whatever, and I dislike people saying that just because you mix some appropriate strength movements and doing them in "cardio" mode type workouts, means you are doing "CF" workouts...

CF has been packaged, marketed as such and is still an evolving business model (witness the large number of certifications now as example), I'm sure in years to come it will continue to evolve; I would not be surprised to see in future a CF-Strength for people more biased towards strength, CF-Running for those biased towards running, etc.

.

crossfit does not lay claim to any of these movements or mixes

only to their codification based on results

as to the biases for endurance strength etc, then the jury is still out

here's an interesting read on that front

http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=44

also comparing me to you is silly

the only real comparison is myself against myself based on different protocols, the rate of adaptation and injury rates

[galapogos]

I just did it in hometeam gym. They allowed me to do this.

But too many people asking me if I am from dragon boat.

I wonder what'll happen when 6 people try to do it

[Sufian]

Haha... I think its ok.

6 guys do this... We would need
1 X concept II rower
2 X 75lb BB
1 X Box/bench to jump on
2 X 20lb DBs.

Should be ok lah. But in Clubfitt... Hmmm.... I not too sure they allow jumping onto the bench.

[galapogos]

You thinking of doing this in clubfit? Not in a million years...

[xarope]

here's an interesting read on that front

http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=44

also comparing me to you is silly

the only real comparison is myself against myself based on different protocols, the rate of adaptation and injury rates

I've read that article at gymjones, and I agree 110%. There's no free lunch. CF will continue to evolve, as it has. Which is why triathlons and marathons and powerlifting and olympic lifting etc still maintain the same format, so you CAN compare yourself to others.

Why, then, have the CF games otherwise, if not to compare? IMHO it's because the CF org realises that they need to turn CF into a sport, not just a workout in itself, for fear of being absorbed into the larger realm of S&C workouts which in themselves, are merely a tool to be used in the larger picture of athletic pursuits. Whether this succeeds or not, we'll see. The CF games seem kind of meaningless at this stage, no weight classes for one example, "random" workouts for another. Might as well have a decathlon which changes every year... see what I mean, meaningless.

[xarope]

here's an interesting read on that front

http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=44

wait a minute, you refer to this article, and then you express shock at my 110min workout?

[jerry.mobbs]

here's an interesting read on that front

http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=44

wait a minute, you refer to this article, and then you express shock at my 110min workout?

well i doubt your training for 100 mile canoe races ;-)

theres also plenty of evidence that twight is not correct

quite a few triathletes at sydney talked openly about dramatic reduction in volume and improvement in race times

brian mackenzie now has guys doing 100 mile races who did not have a huge aerobic training base, they just cf wod+ short sports specific workout later in the day

counterintuitive, but the results are startling....

[jerry.mobbs]

here's an interesting read on that front

http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=44

also comparing me to you is silly

the only real comparison is myself against myself based on different protocols, the rate of adaptation and injury rates

I've read that article at gymjones, and I agree 110%. There's no free lunch. CF will continue to evolve, as it has. Which is why triathlons and marathons and powerlifting and olympic lifting etc still maintain the same format, so you CAN compare yourself to others.

Why, then, have the CF games otherwise, if not to compare? IMHO it's because the CF org realises that they need to turn CF into a sport, not just a workout in itself, for fear of being absorbed into the larger realm of S&C workouts which in themselves, are merely a tool to be used in the larger picture of athletic pursuits. Whether this succeeds or not, we'll see. The CF games seem kind of meaningless at this stage, no weight classes for one example, "random" workouts for another. Might as well have a decathlon which changes every year... see what I mean, meaningless.

if you understand the objectives of crossfit, then the games are very meaningful

a 300lb guy is going to hate chest to bar pull ups, but the 30 cleans at 155lb will be a breeze....

its not meant to be 'fair', the events are what they are in line with the 'hopper' theory which is one of the three tenets of crossfits definition of fitness

[Sufian]

FIGHT GONE BAD....
a substitute that we can do at TPY stadium, with our equipment...

In this workout you move from each of five stations after a minute. This is a five-minute round from which a one-minute break is allowed before repeating. We can use this in 3 and 5 round versions. The stations are:

Thrusters with 20lb DB/hand
Sumo Deadlift High Pull with 16kg KB/hand
Box Jump on the sit-up bench
Push Press with 16kg KB/hand
Cleans with 20lb DB/hand

The clock does not reset or stop between exercises. On call of "rotate," the participants move to next station immediately for good score. One point is given for each rep.

Equipments that we will need....
4 X 20lb DB
4 X 16kg KB
5 can go at a time. If we have 10 person again, then we can have a person keeping score for every station.

Any views?

[galapogos]

FIGHT GONE BAD....
a substitute that we can do at TPY stadium, with our equipment...

In this workout you move from each of five stations after a minute. This is a five-minute round from which a one-minute break is allowed before repeating. We can use this in 3 and 5 round versions. The stations are:

Thrusters with 20lb DB/hand
Sumo Deadlift High Pull with 16kg KB/hand
Box Jump on the sit-up bench
Push Press with 16kg KB/hand
Cleans with 20lb DB/hand

The clock does not reset or stop between exercises. On call of "rotate," the participants move to next station immediately for good score. One point is given for each rep.

Equipments that we will need....
4 X 20lb DB
4 X 16kg KB
5 can go at a time. If we have 10 person again, then we can have a person keeping score for every station.

Any views?

I say we keep this for the rainy days when we train at the Safra gym. We're gonna need a shit-load of KBs for the SDLHP and the push press(4 per person!), and the movement isn't the same. Might as well KB snatch instead of SDLHP

[Sufian]

hmm... ok.. Good call.

[Sufian]

I say we keep this for the rainy days when we train at the Safra gym. We're gonna need a shit-load of KBs for the SDLHP and the push press(4 per person!), and the movement isn't the same. Might as well KB snatch instead of SDLHP

reading again.. why would we need 4 KB per person? With each starting from different station... For 5 persons we would need 4 KBs total. Snatching 2 KBs at a time is not gonna be easy. As it is, I am having difficulty snatching my 24kg due to poor landing technique.

[Weib]

careful about snatching in poor technique and fatigue..
you can injure yourself like me.

[galapogos]

I say we keep this for the rainy days when we train at the Safra gym. We're gonna need a shit-load of KBs for the SDLHP and the push press(4 per person!), and the movement isn't the same. Might as well KB snatch instead of SDLHP

reading again.. why would we need 4 KB per person? With each starting from different station... For 5 persons we would need 4 KBs total. Snatching 2 KBs at a time is not gonna be easy. As it is, I am having difficulty snatching my 24kg due to poor landing technique.

Sorry I meant 4 KB per wave - 6 if you wanna clean/press with both KB. Actually cleaning with a DB is going to be a lot different from the rower, so I don't think it's a very good sub. As it is, BB cleans were already a poor substitute for the rower IMHO. I wouldn't snatch 24kg - 16kg is probably the max for reps at our current level.